Tuesday, April 20, 2010

Shivram Kumar - the greatest liar

Look at the FAQ section in Kumar Shivram's PROFILES DVD. You can check out the video someone has put here.

BWW stock code is PRD1. If you do not know, Kumar & Anjali are double diamonds in Amway Global/BWW business.

This fellow has lied, lied and lied in it through his teeth. Mr. honesty, Mr. integrity - that is what is portrayed, but here is how he dodges the truth, contradicts himself and tries to convince the gullible prospect into signing up:

(1) What are my chances of success?

His answer to this question is not direct. He uses the well-known "analogy" technique. All people seasoned in Amway/quixtar use this technique to dodge the facts and to divert peoples' focus on to something else.

He compares Amway/quixtar with exercise. It sounds perfectly logical when you hear it. He talks about 9 core steps - you need to do these - to succeed. He says many people do not do the 9 core steps and that is why they do not succeed. So the analogy is "people join a gym and they do not work out" similarly "people join Amway and don't do the work".

Why don't they do it? Because many people who join are not informed about the "whole deal" when they sign up. They are given partial information and get signed up. They think if they join, do a 100 PV every month and then recruit other people, then they can succeed. Many of them are not told about the 9 core steps when they sign up, so they join but then later on quit.

Alright, Kumar - why don't you just take the people who do the 9 core steps and then calculate the chance of success?

The point is one cannot really tell who are doing the 9 core steps, because some of them are not measurable. Here are the 9 core steps:

(1) Show 3 to 5 plans a week
(2) Do 300 PV personal volume (couple) or 150 PV personal volume (single) including customer volume
(3) Do 50 PV customer volume minimum
(4) Listen to CD daily (start with 1/day and then increase to 2/day)
(5) Read daily (start at 15 min/day and increase to 1 hour/day)
(6) Attend all associations - open (every Tue/Wed), PASE (every Fri), phone meeting (every Sun), weekend functions, BBS, upline promotions, etc.,
(7) Build your business with integrity and honesty
(8) Counsel monthly with counseling sheet
(9) Communikate

Steps (7) and (8) are not measurable. A guy who does not sell (i.e. does not do step (3) above) and reports 50 PV customer volume through CVR or CSAR is failing on step (7) as well. Many BWW IBOs do not sell products. Uplines encourage them to simply report CVR or CSAR.

Step (8) again has lots of caveats to it.

So what they conclude is that the people who are succeeding are only the people who do the 9 core steps, so they conclude the converse: "let us see who is succeeding. They are the only ones doing the 9 core steps."

The fact is many people do all the 9 core steps for several years and still do not succeed. That is where your upline will tell you things like "you are not using the power of spoken word", "you are not in submission to upline", "your husband-wife relationship is not good", "you are not caring about people", etc., to make you believe that if you set that right, then it will work for you. The point is they never accept the fact that it is very very tough to build and maintain your network, even after doing all of these steps.

Another thing to note is that to do the 9 core steps above it takes a LOT of time. They lie to you telling it takes 6 to 10 hours a week to build this business! Kumar says this below himself. LIAR.

For step (1) above, you need to do the 4 basics i.e. contact, invite, show the plan, follow up/sign up. You will run out of your A and B lists (friends and acquaintances) very fast and will have to do this with C list (strangers). The success rate of converting a contact to a plan/overview is 20% or less with C list. So you need to contact 15 to 25 people every week to show 3 to 5 plans per week. This is why people run around in malls, grocery stores, Costco, Wal-mart, literally everywhere to make these contacts. It takes a lot of time to contact those many people, usually 20 hours per week. This contradicts Kumar's answer to question (2) below.

(From those 12 to 20 plans/month, you usually 1 or 2 signed up. Amway guys tell you should read more or listen to more CDs or go with proper expectation to dodge the fact that the business simply does not work.)

Also people treat you like trash when they figure out that you are an Amway guy. So you usually dodge that by saying something like you own a company or you own a social-networking site or some other smart term like "private franchizing" so you are taught to LIE, LIE and LIE. Many of them trash you when you call them. Many do "no shows" i.e. they do not come for the plan when you set up an appointment. Many do "no shows" at the open meeting. Many do "no shows" at the follow up and run away with your CDs, literature pack, etc., So sign up is a distant dream, when you make one contact...

Kumar says "life is all about freedom to succeed and freedom to fail" - the success ratio in Amway is less than 1%. Why do 99% people fail, Kumar? Because you guys do not tell the whole deal when they sign up. You cheat them and get them signed up and then you put one thing after another on them. Yeah - you have an analogy telling "they do not tell you the whole deal when you join a company. they only tell you what to do next." - So you are just as cheap as my company, not any better, so stop claiming that Amway is the best. You are just like my company, which according to you, STINKS. So Amway STINKS according to your own statements.

(2) How much time will I need to invest?

Ok - the truth - if you see how Kumar worked to go diamond... he has said he attended 3 to 4 open meetings per week (in 2 locations in New Jersey, 1 in Long Island, 1 in Philadelphia) and then 1 PASE at his house and then showed 5 plans during the weekends. Along with that, you add the other 8 core steps. It takes anywhere from 40 to 60 hours a week to do that. He lies telling maximum he has seen done is 15 hours/wk. Kumar - I agree with you that people make money with Amway, but why do you lie like this to get gullible prospects in?

Kumar lies here telling people can build this in 4 hours/week. Even the open meeting itself takes more than 4 hours/week including the commute and night owl. KUMAR - you are a master liar, man! Come on! Tell the truth! Are those people really getting results???

You are lying that you do not know what to tell if people have more than 20 hours per week? When you went diamond, how many sleepless nights you had? You guys are good at dodging work in your office by writing poetry or sleeping in bathrooms, but how long could someone do that???

(3) I know all about this business.

He says "maybe you were in this business before. Ok. You have 2 options. Do you want to find out more? Do you want to know what has changed? Or do you want to say forget it...?"

What has changed? Maybe some products. Maybe stuff in double-X is new now... maybe some bad products were removed. Nothing has changed overall. It is still the same old raw deal.

(4) Does quixtar really pay those bonuses?

Easy question. Quixtar/Amway is black-and-white - no gray areas like the systems. So this is easy to answer. Nothing to hide here. They have products and prices and bonuses. You do the analysis and decide for yourself what to buy, what to sell, etc., They tell you, in writing, all the rules. You are supposed to read and sign it when you join. Many people do not read the Amway/quixtar documents, so they end up believing the lies told by the IBOs.

"System income" part is where the gray area is. New IBOs are not told about the 9 core steps above and how steps (4), (5) and (6) above contribute to system income for higher pins. This is hidden for all IBOs below platinum. Why don't you make it public and tell the new IBOs all the facts??? What is the secret behind the money collected for associations, CDs, books and leaderships?

Quixtar/amway pays you only on volume. If you do not requalify, they do not pay you. But BWW/WWDB/LTD, etc., pay fake diamonds and fake emeralds bcos once you qualify once, you are always that pin in the system, not in quixtar. Yes, Amway may still say you are that pin according to the official Amway blog post here, but they won't pay you that much! They will only pay you how much business you brought to them!

(5) Aren't the products expensive?

YES, YES and YES. To do 300 PV personal volume will take you close to $950. If you sell some of that, then still you spend more than $700 per month for products that you might have spent only less than $100 outside... products are of good quality, but you decide.

He says it is not a discount buying club. So Mr. Kumar, why do you say in all your open meetings people can save up to 30% of money that they are already spending? then why do you lie telling people can re-direct their "anyway" money?

He says "at the 15% level you are getting your products for free". A totally unqualified statement and a lie. He assumes ppl are doing 100 PV - which is supposed to cost $250. Even that is true only if you have good structure and you make some sales. You will be spending close to $1200 to $1500 per month to do the 9 core steps, so you will need to go at least 4000 PV, 21%, to break even! Kumar, the LIAR.

(6) How much can I really make?

After all the untold expenses, you will break even only when you make $1500 to $2000/month.

Kumar says "we are upfront and honest about income representations" - really? Why don't you say platinums actually make only $1000/month to $1500/month, bcos most of them have only less than 3 legs, not the 6 legs shown at the open meeting plan. You portray the first lie the very first time the plan is exposed to prospects telling platinums make $2600/month and you claim you are upfront and honest? You lie in the DVD too!

At the diamond level, he says there is $150,000 of "ongoing" income. The figure is OK, but "ongoing". So Kumar, how many of your diamonds requalified last year as diamonds and had their "ongoing" income and how many of them are still running around as fake diamonds making only $100K/yr from Amway and then probably raking up through BWW income? Ok - what is the status of Ramesh & Ramaa, Ajay & Alka, Nanda & Sangita? Did they EVER requalify as diamonds? Somehow only Sugeet seems to make it to diamond club and Peter Island every year, so WHAT is the mystery here with all your other diamonds?

And you guys still lie telling 100 PV = $250. How long has it been since that changed, but your plan has not?

(7) I am a student. How can I build this business?

The truth is, if you are an F-1 student you should not legally do any work outside your school. But many students work illegally and never get caught, so you can work in Amway illegally too. Many students who work illegally do not have their incomes reported to the IRS. They get paid in cash. But Amway considers you as an independent contractor and reports your income to the IRS in form 1099-Misc. You cannot have a 1099-Misc if you are on F-1 visa. The IRS does not care what your visa status as long as you pay your taxes. But if the USCIS finds out, you may be in trouble. Your upline usually responds to this by telling "1099-Misc is fine" or "even foreigners can own Amway business in USA". But neither Amway nor your upline nor the system has any proof telling F-1 students can earn income through Amway. You do it at your own risk. To my knowledge, no one has been caught by USCIS, but even if they are caught, Amway diamonds will never disclose it in public, since many F-1 students will quit and the diamond income will drop.

And I have never seen a single student making substantial income through Amway when they were a student. The amounts are so pathetic that nobody cares! But your 100 PV counts for your upline.

You cannot do Amway if you are on H1-B visa or J1 visa too. "1099-INV" - investment income and stock market income are fine. Even real estate income is fine, but independent contractor income thru 1099-Misc is not fine. Make sure you check with an immigration attorney before you join Amway. The fee of $200 or so for the immigration attorney is a lot less than the pain of deportation.

OK, finally why do I care?

Because I believed in all these lies and wasted substantial amount of money, time and energy in this. I do not want anyone else to fall into the same trap. And I am not against the 0.001% of the people who make money honestly with Amway, but tell your prospects the whole deal and let them decide. Do not lie to them and keep changing the deal as people start believing you more.


  1. The main reason people fail in Amway is because they have no skills for Network Marketing, no business savvy, no clue about team work. Absolutley NO training or concept of how to sell and keep loyal clients, year in year out. No clue how to generate traffic and attract clients to their retail site. They dont THINK like an entrepreneur....like someone who builds businesses for years without taking a salary sometimes.... Why do I know this? Because I used to be like that. Its taken me a long time to figure out the systematic approach to building teams and it all starts with building relationships with people way before you even connect them to your business.
    My best advice would be to read all the books, listen to and watch as much info as you can BEFORE joining, then select a decent upline and go like crazy!!
    For advice and help on the above, see my blog....which is new by the way! I'm getting the idea that it takes ACTION to really succeed.

  2. Cathy,
    its true that you shld retail out and keep that volume not becoz its profitable but becoz its also a legal issue to meet FTC regulation. If you do not retail then you are in an illegal scheme , a pyramid. 99% of the GALA LOS does not retail, period! They are told to consume 300PV on a personal basis and fuge the CVR on the website. I have done it and so have all my ex-uplines. The point is if I am spending a good 15hrs on an average a week just to retail products, then I need to spend atleast another 15hrs focusing on the 9 core steps and 4 basics correct? So essential I have signed up for a 30 plus hr additional work in addition to my regular job(which btw is approx 60hrs a week). So how long can an IBO keep up the peak performance of 90hrs a week bfore everything starts to fizzle out?? And not to mention the umpteen Kate conference calls, open meetings, PASE meetings, Functions that are constantly bombarded onto you. Cathy honey, let us know when you go 7500PV without fudging a single PV and entirely by your own actions.

  3. just for example...if you have a grosary shop... & you business is running great... but u thought lets do something like making a member/distributor--> like amway distributor...
    you can make...you r thinking that 1st i will make distributors then only i will sale...its like you have a shop...but waiting for someone to be member....but other side...retailing...
    you depend on only making distributors...will not help u... retailing products will help u...so, whatever shivram kumar says is true...& ethicle...PRAGNESH->9586854265.

  4. amway is world s best business and kumar shivram is double diamond.if you really want to kno about amway or kumar shivram go double diamond...you ll know.

  5. aarti -

    your comment does not address a *single* point i have written in the post. why don't you read it again and see whether you can address *specific* points, rather than the usual amway rambling, which i also used to do when i was active like you.

    (can't help but feel sorry for you, bcos i feel sorry for who i was, when i was in amway.)

  6. rocky11/Pragnesh,

    i cant understand what your point is.

    it looks like you are trying to repeat something your heard on a CD or at an open meeting - maybe the point appealed to you when you listened to it and you got convinced about the amway plan. but you haven't done a good job of expressing it in words.

    i feel sorry for you - i was a parrot like you when i was in amway.

    if you think you will eventually make money with amway, do 9-5-3-BiB and whatever else they recommend you do. (mainly don't spend time writing on blogs like these, bcos if your upline knows about it, they'll kill you.) evaluate your business a year after you do all the steps. you will know what the truth is.

  7. Comments about Shivram Kumar -

    Some of the active IBOs come here and comment general "ra... ra..." stuff. I do not like to post general rambles. If you have the guts, can you please answer the specific points addressed here? I want to keep this blog up to the point, so please do not ramble about how great Shivram Kumar is, how great Amway/BWW is, etc., Start your own blog for making such statements. Thanks!

  8. Dude

    Thanks a lot, I was invited to a meeting just a few days back, I saw your blog just now, I am not going, I am a H1 , when I asked legality of making the money, they talked about 1099 , but now that I learned its a risk I take with USCIS, I am not going to do it.

  9. I thank god for showing me the light at the end of the tunnel & I left this business after losing lot of money, refusing to follow the upline whose only advice was do it ONLY if we contributed to their PV.

  10. Hi,

    I got tricked and registered and attended one Spring Leadership conference also man it was a drama i felt so uncomfortable they talk like Jesus will come down and bless you with wealth and happiness.. May be but there are people in there 40's sitting and taking notes and hoping they will go Diamond one day .. I dont know what to make out of those people really..

    Now my only concern how do i get out without breaking the bridge with my upline.. My upline are descent individuals and well qualified folks like me.. But they all believe they can make it what can i say but i would rather spend that time in my job and be happy with the money I make with my family

  11. Thanks for good info.If people want to do this business, why do they have to decide that after getting Masters, Bachelors degrees etc. Start working in a retail shop to hone your marketing skills and join this business directly.There are lot more interesting things in this world than money. I always feel people get stuck in such states because, they dont know how to control their dreams or use common sense...If they know, reality dawns on quickly..People going on trips in this business, just go to make more money...period

  12. Thanks dude.
    I am taking the decision of "not going" becoz of you.

  13. I am just writing this to let you know that you have done a great job here. Really well done. People get sucked into this stuff all the time. If only they make it a point not to believe what they are being told but also research on their own, this would not happen. Also, most of the people I have seen in this "business" are all H1Bs, and are doing illegal "business". Really worrying.

  14. He is speaking the truth me and my wife were in amway for 6 years this is the truth he is speaking. Please people save your money and time this business is a blood sucking. save yourselves

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